It’s hard to describe a multifaceted talent likePaul Heymanin a few words, or to encapsulate his Hall-of-Fame career in whatever many moments could be contained in a journalism piece. As one of the prominent faces ofWWEin the past decade, it’s easy to say that Paul Heyman spearheaded the wave of change that resulted in the current Paul Levesque regime and led the company to be the most successful it has ever been, financially and creatively.
New fans may be most familiar with Paul Heyman forhis role as the Wiseman in Roman Reigns' Bloodline, or, before that, as the Advocate for the Beast Incarnate, Brock Lesnar. However, the 59-year-old New Yorker is a lot more than that. AEW fans may be surprised to learn that the wrestling style of their favorite promotion would probably not exist if Heyman’s brainchild, Extreme Championship Wrestling, did not popularize it in the 1990s. If being credited fordiscovering talents such as Brock Lesnar and CM Punkwas not enough, Heyman is also one of the few people on Earth who openly stood up to Vince McMahon, to the point that an argument between the two led to Heyman’s departure from the company for five years.
Ever since his return,Paul has been at the forefront of the leading angles and storylines of the company, especially after coming up withthe Bloodline conceptwith Roman Reigns, which is almost unanimously recognized as the lynchpin in the WWE’s recent resurgence. However, as it’s only natural for someone involved with the wrestling business for the majority of his life, Paul Heyman remains a controversial and sometimes elusive figure who thrives in treading the line between fact and fiction.
ScreenRant had the privilege of sitting down with Paul Heyman for an extensive interview, and here are some of the most interesting nuggets of wisdom that he dropped on us.
The Bloodline Came Together When Roman Reigns “Was Pretty Fed Up With The Creative Here”
“That’s The Answer That We’re Both Looking For, Put Us Together”
Many fans will agree that the Bloodline story has “saved” the WWE. We all know and appreciate Paul Heyman as a character in that story, but I’ve always been curious about your creative role in it. How much are you responsible for the conception and development of the Bloodline story?
The concept of the Bloodline is something that Roman Reigns and I discussed seven or eight years ago. Several years before the actual inception of the Bloodline this was already a discussion between us. At the time, he was still fleshing out his persona in front of the WWE fan base, and doing so well in the main event multiple times of WrestleMania, which is extraordinary to think about. I was at the side of Brock Lesnar, and we were in the middle of an exceptionally hot run as well.
So, the timing for Roman Reigns and Paul Heyman joined together was just never with all the stars aligned. It just was never the right time. Then, in 2020, COVID shut down the world. Brock Lesnar went home to Saskatchewan to farm. Roman Reigns was not appearing anymore because there needed to be certain COVID protocols to keep him safe. Also, his wife had just given birth to a second set of twin boys, so there were now five kids running around that household, and finally, he was pretty fed up, and he’s been very articulate about this. He was pretty fed up with the creative here, and he felt that his character had plateaued andhe wanted to elevate not only his character, but the entire presentation of what we as performers do at WWEand how WWE presents its performers, and nothing that he was being pitched was to his liking.
At the same time, I had just been removed as executive director of Monday Night Raw, and was literally sitting at home being paid every week. So when the suggestion came up of, “God, what are we going to do, just put you guys together?” Yes, that’s the answer that we’re both looking for, put us together, and once we got the green light on that, we started, Roman and I started comparing notes as towhat disruptions of the industry we had both envisioned during this COVID period, and I think we both saw the opportunity for a different presentation within the restrictions of what we had because we had no live audience, and we understood what a detriment that was to the product.
We also understood what an amazing opportunity that presented to us in terms of being able to do different scenes that you could never do while a live audience is there. So in terms of the inception of the Bloodline, my contribution was: everything was discussed between Paul Heyman and Roman Reigns becausewe were on a daily basis trying to create a new genre out of the performance arts that had been presented for so many years.
As a follow-up, in your vast experience, is this the first time that a talent has been so involved in the creative on such a powerful level?
I don’t think any top performer can be a top performer without significant input into the creative. You know, you hear all these stories about Robert De Niro on the set with Martin Scorsese, or how Jack Nicholson would approach a certain performance, or how Clint Eastwood as a director gives his performers so much leeway into taking ownership of the character that they are supposed to inhabit. And I think it’s the very same way in this performance art. Roman Reigns could not be a proper tribal chief without feeling the dimensions of the tribal chief, the persona of the tribal chief, and the manner in which the tribal chief will address the adversities that descend upon him on a daily basis.
I would suggest that back in the ’80s Hulk Hogan was very hands-on with his creative. I can attest to the fact that Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock were very hands-on with their creative at their height. I’ve seen John Cena for hours discuss different aspects of how his persona would address certain circumstances, and even trying to come up with different circumstances that the persona of John Cena, not just the human being of John Cena, would have to address. And it’s the same way with Roman Reigns and The Bloodline and Paul Heyman.I don’t know anyone that can last on top this long that doesn’t have significant input into their characters.Also, because the very nature of sports and entertainment, let alone sports entertainment, is hurry up and replace.
The moment you discover Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan, they’re looking for the next Michael Jordan. The moment you discover Steph Curry is Steph Curry, they’re looking for the next Steph Curry. So the moment someone becomes the best of this generation, let alone the greatest of all time, they’re looking for the next version. So if you don’t take a hands-on approach to the presentation of this character, then they are looking for the one that topples you. So you have to keep it very fresh at all times, which is why you need significant input because you’re going to have a clearer version of something fresh for your character than anybody else’s becausethey can’t want it for you more than you want.
Paul Heyman On The Evolution Of Paul Heyman
“Tonight, If I Wanted To, I Could Create A Riot.”
Talking about the Paul Heyman character now, whenever you are on-screen I always think “if this man was a full-time actor, he could easily win an Oscar”. You are an amazing actor in the technical sense of the word, so I’m curious: how and when did you learn to act so well? I know you’ve spent most of your life around pro wrestlers, but did you also go to acting school? Is it just practice and talent?
I study. I’m a voracious student of camera angles, lighting, sound. From being obsessed with directing,I’ve studied different ways to approach the performance. And also it’s a lot of what we do is very much improv. I know the theme of what I’m going to talk about when I go out there. I know the sales pitch. I know what I’m trying to convey to the audience, but I don’t really know the exact words. I may know a line or two that I have planned. But besides that,it’s just taking the temperature of the room and playing to it. And when you do that for so long, there are nuances and idiosyncrasies and subtleties that you learn in reading the room. And you know, how much patience do they have to hear [that] much stick. I better get out of here sooner than later because the reaction is going to go down. Oh man, this is such a hot audience. I can play to them and build them into a frenzy. Tonight, if I wanted to, I could create a riot. Tonight, if I wanted to, I could move them all the tears. Tonight these guys don’t care about anything. I better get out of there while the getting’s good.
It’s just a feel for the interactive synergy that you have with an audience. I would dare to say that if you watch any orator perform in front of his audience, they will all tell you something similar to this. What’s the core of what I’m talking about? How do I drive that core into the heart of the audience?How do I get them to feel what I’m saying and care about?And if you can ask yourself those questions before you go through the curtain and perform or if it’s a backstage before the red light goes on, then what you’ve accomplished is putting yourself in the mindset of the viewer. And once you’re in the minds of the viewers, how do you play to them? And how do you get them emotionally invested in the message that you’re delivering?
So if my message is, Roman Reigns' opponent is sitting in the other chair across the table from me and I want to make that audience feel for him or her, I want the audience to care deeply about them. I want the audience to be sympathetic towards them. I know that my tone and my tenor will dictate the heat of the moment. I also know if I want that person to be the antagonist, and I’m the protagonist that something has to be sympathetic about me and I have to mind my tone and tenor to be more vulnerable so that the other person comes across as the bully, the abuser, the full-fledged antagonist in this scene. It’s about approaching the world itself.
The Most Overlooked Matches In ECW
“The Quality Of The Matches That They Put On Stands The Test Off Time.”
Mandatory question about ECW: you have given so many talents a platform to shine with ECW, and so many of them have then reached bigger stages, especially in the WWE. However, can you name some ECW matches that you believe are still underrated today?
One way, it’s Rob Van Dam versus Jerry Lynn.I think AEW is RVD. I think anybody who watches AEW is witnessing a style that emanates from Rob Van Dam versus Jerry Lynn in the style. And also Dean Malenko versus Eddie Guerrero. I think if you look at any Dean Malenko versus Eddie Guerrero match from ECW, or Rob Van Dam versus Jerry Lynn match from ECW, you see exactly what the concept is that was employed by AEW in their style.
I also think we get so much credit. We, being ECW, got so much credit for the popularity of a three-way match, And I don’t think there was a three-way match in history that was nearly as exciting as the series that was put together by Super Crazy versus Tajiri versus Little Guido, who later became known as Nunzio in WWE. I would suggest those three-way matches are the most underrated, the most, underappreciated. And just because they were on the supporting part of the card for, at the time, big title matches that we were presenting and really pushing as the centerpiece of the promotion, people, just in terms of history, have lost sight of how influential Super Crazy versus Tajiri versus Little Guido was.And the quality of the matches that they put on stands the test of time.
I don’t spend a lot of time looking back, and I spend even less time looking at footage looking back. But I have stumbled across a couple of their matches, and I end up watching them from start to finish, and I rarely ever do that. I just marvel at them. If that match had been taken to a bigger platform, that match would have ended up on WCW or WWE pay-per-views. They would have gone down to some of the greatest matches in the history of the genre, without a doubt.
What Will Paul Heyman’s Legacy Be?
“I’ve Been Remarkably Blessed In My Life”
You’ve had so many accomplishments in the business in your Hall of Fame career, but if you were forced to choose just one that you will be remembered for, what would that be?
I can’t answer that because I’m not the audience. And if you were to bring in a roomful of people that have been privy to my body of work, there are those who will tell you that in their lives,ECW changed their fandom. I don’t know many things that can happen in the course of anyone’s career that will compare tobeing just a part of Brock Lesnar conqueringthe Undertaker’s undefeated streak at WrestleMania. I mean, that was just a moment where time truly stood still.
And then, again, for as much as ECW was a true revolution or evolution, an authentic disruption of the entire industry,I can say the same thing about the Bloodline. What Roman Reigns was driven to put together from the moment that we ended up on screen as a tandem, is every bit the disruption that ECW was in the 1990s. Roman Reigns has changed the approach of professional wrestling slash sports entertainment.
Roman Reigns has changed the manner in which performers go to work here. Roman Reigns has changed the way a top talent is presented on television and the expectations of that top talent. And the fact that he was the centerpiece of the first $1,000,000,000 revenue year in WWE history, and now we’re doing multi-billions a year with him still as the undisputed top star, speaks volumes for the case. Nothing gets bigger or better than this.
So I really don’t know what my legacy is tied to. I’ve been remarkably blessed in my life to be part of so many huge pivotal moments in the history of this industry that it’s truly up to the viewer and those affected by what we do to determine which one had the most impact, which one is the most memorable, which one is the calling card, so to speak, of the body of work that’s been presented.
And if I were to rephrase the question… which moment or accomplishment is the one that you are most proud of?
Haven’t lived it yet. The entire body of work.. I’m as proud of the failures as I am of the successes because I survived the failures, and not a lot of people do. Here’s what you always read: “this guy had an amazing career. This guy had everything going until this happened, and then it was over. He never recovered from that. He never got past that.”
It doesn’t have to, and I’m not just talking about scandal. I’m talking about anything: he broke his leg; he was never the same. He was in a car wreck. He didn’t wanna travel anymore. Something unfortunate happened at home. He couldn’t get his mind back into the game. He got fired from one job. It affected him so badly. He can never find that passion, that grit again. There’s always something that derails people. There’s always a failure in someone’s life that affects them. The fact that I’ve survived so many different firings, quittings, blow-ups, and continue to come back.
It goes back to the Hall of Fame speech in whichno one can cancel you. Only you’re able to cancel you. So I haven’t lived that moment yet because every success, every failure, every push in terms of being neither a success nor a failure, but somewhere in the middle, has led me to this moment.
And at this moment, I’m still sitting at the very top with the absolute undisputed number one star in the industry. And in a situation where someone who has come back to WWE after 10 years, CM Punk, is so involved now in our conversation because of the favor that I owe him and the mystery surrounding that.
I would hate to put a tag on something and say, yeah. That’s it to me, that’s the height, because I still feel that there are heights yet to achieve. I don’t know what it will be like to say it doesn’t get any higher than it. The moment Brock Lesnar pinned The Undertaker at WrestleMania, I started thinking, wow. Tomorrow night’s promo on Raw has to be so huge that it’s part 2 of this 1, 2 punch in beating The Undertaker. It has to be that big. And once we delivered that promo, it’s, wow. This first match that Brock has after defeating the streak, can this person be the one to beat the 1 in 21 and 1? So, it’s always moving forward.
The day I’m resting on my laurels is the day I really have to get out.
Why Heyman Has No Interest In Running WWE’s Creative
“I Think This Is The Best The Product Has Ever Been
Looking at the WWE roster right now, if tomorrow you had absolute creative control over the company, which program between two superstars or factions would you start? What story would you like to tell?
I don’t have any vision of having absolute creative control.I am a fan of what Paul Levesque is doing right nowand love the fact of how many talents have elevated to the main event status since he took over the creative. When Paul Levesque took over the creative, Roman Reigns was it. I mean, Roman Reigns was the sun around which all the other planets would orbit. And now we have multiple top stars.
We haveCody Rhodes who’s a very worthy champion. We have Gunther, who’s a very worthy champion. We have Bron Breakker who is just coming up the ranks faster than anybody I’ve ever seen. We have CM Punk back. We have Seth Freaking Rollins putting on a clinic every single time he steps into the ring. How can you turn on WWE TV and not just be enthralled by everything Rhea Ripley does? How can you watch WWE TV and not be mesmerized by the level of performance that Liv Morgan has put on in the past year, let alone, Nia Jax’s improvement and what a character she’s become. And then you look at everybody, you look at the rest of this roster, and now they’re just scratching and clawing into that main event. Kevin Owens, Randy Orton, Street Profits, Bronson Reed…
I mean, my god.Has anyone become as understood by the public and become as respected in terms of his ability and yet vilified by the public because of what he does quicker than Jacob Fatu?And Solo, who was a mute before WrestleMania, takes the mic in his own hands and has become the greatest challenger that Roman Reigns has ever faced, to the point where Solo comes out wearing the Ula Fala and declares himself the tribal chief, and people are angry at him because they know that he has a valid claim to being so. Who would have ever imagined that? That’s all under the creative direction and the content coordination by Paul Levesque.
So, while I appreciate the question, I have no desire to have full creative autonomy because I think what we’re presenting right now, and I think the box office and the ratings and the numbers and the merch sales and everything else will support this:I think this is the best the product has ever been. In terms of future developments, Seth Rollins versus CM Punk is a dream match. Roman Reigns versus Solo is a dream match. Roman Reigns versus Seth Rollins is a dream match. Roman Reigns versus CM Punk is a dream match. Roman Reigns versus Jacob Fatu is a dream match. CM Punk versus Jacob Fatou is a dream match. Seth Rollins versus Jacob Fatou is a dream match. Bronson Reed, when he recovers from his injury, stepping into the ring against Jey Uso, to me, is fascinating. Seth Rollins versus Jey Uso, CM Punk versus Jey Uso, The Usos versus the Tongans, The Usos versus Bronson Reed and Jacob Fatu. And I’m just talking about matches that are within our circle.
Look at the rest of the roster. Look at the dream matches that you’ve yet to see. Bron Breakker versus anybody. To me, it’s an interesting match. Look at what Gunther does. Look at the championship matches that Gunther has offered on television in the past few months. Look at the rise of Damian Priest.Give me an opponent for Damian Priest and tell me that you’re not interested. I’ll say that you’re a liar. And then, of course, we get to the female end of the roster. And my god, the dream matches that we have to offer from that side now is mind-boggling.
So, I think we have the blessing, the opportunity to pursue new matches, new main events, and matchups, in different coordinations that have never been seen before and more of them than have ever been made available to us or for the public to see.
The Future & What The New Netflix Era Will Mean For WWE
“…The Product Must change, Must Evolve, Must Upgrade, Must Be Enhanced, Must Be Elevated”
You think that with the upcoming switch from TV to streaming, the way that WWE tells its stories will change to adapt to the different ways that fans will experience the content?
I hope so. I hope the product is always evolving. Roman Reigns and I always like to say, if we can look back on things that we did 6 months ago, and we can even watch it anymore, then we haven’t improved that much, have we? Of course, the product is gonna change when it goes on Netflix. How could it not? It’s the biggest streaming service in the world. It’s the distribution portal now for anyone who wants a level of prestige or placement in the culture. So once we get on Netflix, the approach to how we present the product must change, must evolve, must upgrade, must be enhanced, must be elevated. If not, what are we doing? How are we not taking advantage of that opportunity?
And knowing Paul Levesque, the way I know Paul Levesque, he’s gonna take advantage of that opportunity. Of course, he is. We’re all of this mindset.We’re in a creative environment right now. We’re exhilarated to come to work.There’s an old expression. And, I believe the first time I heard it - though, I’m sure it wasn’t the first time it was said - was byVince McMahon senior, Vincent James McMahon.
And I heard it when I was 16 or 17 years old in the Madison Square Garden locker room. And he had a roll of quarters in his hand. And someone was complaining about something. And Vince said to this person, “Then you should quit working for me and find somewhere to work that makes you happy. But I don’t want you to be here if you’re not happy.” And someone said to Vince senior, “are you happy?” And he said, “You know, I hear people all the time say, I get up in the morning, and I have to go to work. I get up in the morning, and I say to myself, ‘My god, I get to go to work!'” And that’s the mindset here now. We all get to go to work. We all get up in the morning, and we hit the ground running because we’re in a creative environment in which we get to go to work.And we all understand what a fortunate life we get to live in doing so.
So, yes, the product will change on Netflix. Yes, it will be intentional. Yes, it will be with the help and the interaction of the audience itself. And, no, I make no predictions about it because the culture will be different when we get on to Netflix. And the culture itself will dictate how far we go in terms of layers of stories. And at the same time,the accountability will be on us in terms of driving that culture. The same way music drives its culture, the same way sneaker fandom drives its culture, the same way music can drive fashion and sports and other cultures, we will drive the culture. We just have to get embedded into it first.
